Should racism and gay rights piggyback on each other?

topic posted Mon, September 24, 2007 - 3:54 PM by  Lorenzo
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Miami Herald

Mayor's gay remarks split black community

Posted on Sun, Sep. 23, 2007
BY PETER BAILEY
pbailey@herald. com

Inside Fort Lauderdale City Hall, a contingent of gay white men squared
off against black ministers this month, arguing over civil rights.

Outraged over the ministers' decision to announce their support of Mayor
Jim Naugle's crusade against homosexuals on Sept. 4, about 20 gay
activists wearing red shirts and AIDS pins condemned the clergymen the
next day for not being sympathetic to their cause -- one they say
mirrors the African-American struggle.

The ministers did not agree.

''You didn't have to drink from separate fountains. Our struggle is not
the same ... you can't equate race and sexuality,'' O'Neal Dozier,
pastor of the Worldwide Christian Center, told one activist. ``Slavery
was not a choice.''

''Yours is a message of hate, minister ... you don't speak on behalf of
freedom,'' answered Michael Rajner of the Campaign to End AIDS, a
nonprofit group.

Now the debate over gay rights threatens to drive a wedge between
members of South Florida's black community. Despite the support that
many black ministers showed for Naugle, the local NAACP took a public
stand against the mayor, calling his crusade a ``hate campaign.''

''I'm not here to condone or condemn gay sex,'' Marsha Ellison, head of
the Broward NAACP, told The Miami Herald. ``This is a hate campaign
against gays launched by the mayor.''

She said the branch's position -- adopted after a unanimous vote of its
22-member executive committee as well as branch members -- echoes the
national NAACP's position. ''Anytime any group is discriminated against
it becomes a civil rights issue,'' she said.

NAACP Chairman Julian Bond made national headlines with his recent
endorsement of gay marriage -- a step several prominent black ministers
publicly criticized.

While Bond has noted that ''no parallel between movements for rights is
exact,'' his position differs with ministers and others who suggest that
sexual orientation is a matter of choice. He wrote last year: ``Like
race, our sexuality isn't a preference -- it is inborn, and the
Constitution protects us all against discrimination based on immutable
differences. ''

Naugle drew scorn from gay activists nationwide after endorsing an
advisory board proposal to spend $250,000 on an automated public
restroom on Fort Lauderdale beach. The mayor said it would cut down on
men having sex in public facilities.

Initially, the city said only two people had been arrested for sexual
activity in a public restroom since 2005. But Naugle recently said that
number is at least eight, including a recent arrest at Holiday Park.

Coming to Naugle's support this month was a coalition of ministers who
argue that the NAACP's stand is out of step.

''The NAACP is getting away from their mission ... the organization
never got involved with sex sins,'' said Mathis Guice, director of the
men's ministry at Koinonia Worship Center and former vice president of
the Broward NAACP. ``Homosexuals have masterfully redefined words to
suit their cause ... theirs is not a civil rights issue.''

It's the first time the branch has taken a public stand on behalf of gay
rights, said Guice, a member of the branch for more than 20 years and
its former vice president. Guice, Dozier and other ministers gathered at
a rally with Naugle at City Hall on Sept. 4 to stir what they call a
''spiritual revival'' in hopes to ``transform Fort Lauderdale and
Broward County into the Bible Belt of South Florida.''

Some black ministers in Miami-Dade were also disappointed in the NAACP.

''I was very taken back by their position,'' says Rev. Richard P. Dunn,
the head of PULSE, People United to Lead the Struggle for Equality. ``I
get offended when they compare gay rights to civil rights.''

The Rev. Victor Curry, who heads the Miami-Dade branch of the NAACP, did
not respond to repeated requests for comment.

For his part, Naugle says the gay rights issue is playing a divisive
role in the black community. He told The Miami Herald that Ellison's
``position damages the NAACP and its credibility to the community it
serves.''

``On this issue I've gotten the strongest support from the black
community ... from people in Northwest Fort Lauderdale.' '

Ellison argues that Naugle, like some white conservative politicians, is
appeasing to the black clergy's staunch opposition to gay rights to
garner favor among a constituency that hasn't been a power base for
conservatives.

''They jump on the gay issue and win everytime,'' said Ellison. ``There
are ministers that won't even touch the topic because of the stigma
attached.''

Ellison and others argue the clergy is ignoring Naugle's questionable
track record with blacks.

The mayor drew harsh criticism last April from the city's predominantly
black Northwest section when he rallied against an economic
revitalization plan along Sistrunk Boulevard spearheaded by Commissioner
Carlton Moore. Naugle sparked further anger after siding with the police
after the November 2006 shooting death of Troy Eddines, 21, -- the
fourth police slaying that year.

''It's baffling that those ministers have chosen to stand with Naugle,''
said Ellison. ``He's attacking gays now ... it'll be blacks next.''

''He's continued to be downright derogatory about various groups of
people different from himself, whether they be black, poor or gay,''
said Rev. Rosalind Osgood, of Mount Olive Baptist Church. ``My faith
doesn't allow me to support the practice of homosexuality, but no one
should be degraded ... Jesus loves everybody regardless of their sins or
other problems.''

Naugle, for his part, maintains he has a ''great track record'' with the
city's black community.

Nevertheless, Osgood says the black clergy's dual roles as leaders of
the civil rights movement and biblical scholars puts them in an awkward
position with the gay community.

''It puts us as black clergy between a rock and a hard place,'' she
said. ``Our faith says we should be inclusive of all people, but it does
give us rules on how to live our lives.''


__._,_.___
posted by:
Lorenzo
Washington, D.C.
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  • I'll step in here.

    No. I dont believe they should or can piggy back on each other. I completely understand being a disenfranchised minority, I completely understand not having a choice about what you are.

    However, stripped of all affectations, white gays still get white skin priviledge. period. And black people regardless of sexual preference are marginalized.
    • I agree Khadija, white gays still can take advantage of white privilege & minorities get marginalized regardless of sexual preference.

      I'm not sure I totally understand what is meant by "piggyback on each other." Does it mean that we should expect minority leaders in the civil right & anti-racism to be allies on gay rights issues? It would be nice, but we can plainly see that it's not the reality in all cases. Does it mean that LGBT people fighting for gay rights should understand & be allies in the fight against racism? Same thing: it would be nice, but unfortunately not always the case.

      The issues are different, but there are similarities. Unfortunately, the people arguing in this article seem to be focusing on the differences. I'd like to slap the stupid gay rights activists that still want to say that the struggle gay rights is the same as the struggle for civil rights or against racism. However, I have a question for the ministers: Does the fact that discrimination against gays can't be compared to the legacy of slavery mean that it's not important to address it -- or even better, that it's ok to deny gays their civil rights? And a question for the gay rights activists: If you'd like the Black leaders to be more allied with your struggle for gay rights, don't you think you could listen a little more to what they have to say about racism?

      They're both important issues that need to be addressed with or without piggybacking.
    • Of course the gay rights movement shouldn't piggyback on the civil rights movement.

      But the African-American civil rights movement in the US laid the groundwork for every other rights movement this country has seen. And every other such movement, has, at some point, invoked the civil rights movement, either for legitmacy, as insipration, or as motivation. It's not surprising that the gay rights struggle is doing it too.
      • I am going to have to agree with Khad. White (gays) still have white privelidge. I wanted to post the article in order to begin a discussion. In years past I had read that Jews and Blacks have the same struggles. I disagree completely with that theory as well.

        I disagree with what Rio said in that the AA civil rights movement laid the groundwork by which all over civil rights movements have started and/or continued, however, since that time it has been the baseline by which other groups have followed.

        Racism is alive and well in this country and it thrives today. Now you have entire US states that are trying their best to pass entirely racist-based legislation against people of Latin/Hispanic/Chicano origin. AND if you are Muslim then you have even less rights than we.

        I am entirely pissed off that a group of white gay men confronted a group of Black pastors and yes I agree both sides are polarized for each side. It simply reminds me of the entitlement that whites feel they have in pretty much every situation. I know that the Black church is struggling with acceptance of gay blacks much the same as the mostly Catholic Latino population struggles with our gay brothers and sisters.
        • If you read the article, it's not white gays versus black clergy. It's the NAACP calling the minister's actions a hate campaign. And it's black gays like Julian Bond calling them on it. Please don't rephrase this as white gays vs. African-Americans - that totally marginalizes gay people of color, who are actively involved in this particular dispute.
          • Hard to say. I've been reading and hearing a lot of reports from many black gays that they are receiving a lot of hatred, dislike, and prejudice from white gays. Especially online: 'No ethnics need pvt me,' 'Only like white guys,' 'White; you be the same." I don't see harmony here. It was from the civil rights movement that got the gay movement on the roll, but no credit is acknowledge for that.

            I was reading an article about Black and White gay indifferences in the Castro District of San Fran, and read that it's not exclusive to San Fran, but many other major cities. TI've heard a lot of Black gay men say that here's a lot of white gay seperatist activity going on in the white gay community: which I never understand why. But, this action has a lot of Black gays, not so pleased with the actions of their fellow white gays.

            Terry
            • Unsu...
               
              There are so many textures in this conversation i really really want to stick my foot in.


              I just dont how deep or how shallow to start the first step.

              Firstly....

              >>They're both important issues that need to be addressed with or without piggybacking.<<<


              which is almost impossible. I dont't know how to actually say this but... White gays "OWN" the movement.... this is an arguement that lesbians have in terms of the history of the gay rights movement. Which did happen in the late 60's... "piggybacking" the the cicil rights movement. I agree with one poster who is a great deal older than I that all civil rights movements did overlap eachother. I spoke with one lesbian about 6 months ago who claimed that civil rights for blacks was fueled by the suffergette movement at the very birth of the past century. This makes sense..... not that any movement gave birth to another but that one groups strength gave way to another. believable.. but should anyone compare... it's gross to say the any movement for freedom is like any other movement for freedom and thus should be embraced. as a gay black american i think my singular steps towards freedom should be seperated because i know that i could easily be in the closet and actually play my straight black card and win support from the black Christian right.

              Or the black catholic right...

              it's endless how many roads there are to choose. what i have problems with is that most white men ...gay white men i will have this conversation with who date black men act as if they do understand that civil rights fights for African americans can not be equal to those of gay americans. They follow the same credo verbatim. Seemingly heard from the black men they fuck.

              Also...... You have black men and women who are gay who act as if they don't have any power and state tirelessly that gay white men have "white privilage", which i now have made the decision to never say to a person not of color because i believe that is reinforcing the mirage. Sure society has given white men power and gay white men for certain believe they have power and believe they are sexual do-gooders. They asert that they are "okay" for having sex with and defending the black man. Or the latin man... because of their white privilage or belief they have such. I have trouble with that...and of course the idea that gay white men would approach black ministers who of course come from a culture that clung to religion for a historical reason.

              First step to understanding the black communities attachment to religion would be to understand why they clung to religion.


              On the otherhand the muslims have done far more for bridging the gap between straight black men and gay black men then the christians...albiet for dubious hallow reasons. My point is that this instance black gay men are caught in a limbo... and have actually been betrayed for liek the 500th time by the gay white community and the straight black community... but the difference is that the gay white community will deny their racism and the straight church community have professed their homophobia. It boils down to truth.
  • This topic always makes my blood boil and my heart is almost thumping out of my chest right now.

    First, I'll be curt and blunt:

    YES. Racism exists in the gay community. It is borne of prejudice, ignorance, bigotry, disdain, sometimes contempt and often an undeserved sense of superiority. Those most often guilty of this are white. However, I think we all know that other minorities have been just as guilty of this kind of thinking.

    But, homophobia and anti-gay sentiment also exist in the African American community. My take? It is borne of prejudice, ignorance, bigotry, disdain, sometimes contempt and often an undeserved sense of superiority.

    In my mind, when people are more tolerant of AA anti-gay sentiment because of culture, the church, history...I say this in inexcusable BULLSHIT!

    Every dominant culture in the history of humanity who has ever lay claim to superiority over another class of people can use the same lame excuses. Yes, these are real cultural and social traits that prevent majority cultures from accepting or tolerating minority groups.

    But, we should never tolerate such bigotry. Why? Because it causes real pain and real suffering to real human beings.

    In the history of the United States, the dominant white culture has collectively been guilty of this.

    But so has the African American culture. Black American clergy through their non-acceptance of gays contribute to the suffering of real gay people.

    Does sporadic gay-bashing count as much as kidnapping from Africa, slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, and attack dogs? Of course not.

    However, is it unethical and morally unacceptable to exact bigotry and hatred and humiliation against gays, a group of people who can do nothing about being gay? I say of course it is.

    I have always found it disingenuous when people say they take offense at gays likening the struggle for gay acceptance and civil rights to that of the African American struggle for civil rights. There are those who want you to believe that "Oh, how can you say that the negative treatment of gays can ever be equivalent to the suffering and the discrimination and pain experienced by African Americans in the United States?"

    Well, no, we gays have not had experiences similar to slavery, segregation, or economic deprivation. But let's be honest here. These clergy don't so much object to these comparisons because of the differing degree of suffering experienced by the two groups....

    ....it's because they don't like faggots.

    They hide behind culture and tradition and the church and their Bibles to give themselves permission to ignore the forward movement of history of gay acceptance and the scientific progress on the understanding of human sexuality and gender, specifically homosexuality.

    They are like 16th century Catholic cardinals and bishops who have just been presented by Galileo the evidence that the Earth does indeed revolve around the sun. Their response? “No it doesn’t. The sun revolves around the Earth and THAT IS THE WAY IT IS!”

    They ignore all of the recent examples of humans picking and choosing who they like and who they want to accept and who they don't like and who they want to degrade and even sometimes destroy. They ignore the OBVIOUS parallels between bigotry against blacks and bigotry against gays. They ignore the example of Japanese-American internment, the Holocaust, light-skinned black privilege against dark-skinned black disadvantage, and prejudice against Latino immigrants as monuments to or examples of the seemingly inordinate human capacity to marginalize, ostracize, demean, degrade, and hurt THE OTHER.

    In my mind, the African American community and the gay community should be nothing but natural allies in the struggle against the stupidity of our baser collective human nature.

    And the notion that gays can hide their sexuality and therefore ameliorate the effects of homophobia is not entirely true. You can destroy a person without ever having to be in the same room with them. Homophobia does its damage on the gay psyche from afar. It teaches the gay person that he is grotesque, damaged, unworthy, hideous, contemptible, and inferior. The queer reaction to homophobia is often personal dysfunction such as higher degrees of drug use, unsafe sex practices, mental anguish and suicide and of course, the endless pursuit of aping heterosexual characteristics and the worship of straight mannerisms, straight values, and straight sensibilities.

    Yes, my friends, hiding in the closet is just another form of passing. Just like light-skinned blacks or Latinos or mixed-race persons hiding their mongrel racial heritage. The primary motivations for hiding in the closet are personal safety and usually self-hated. It is the mainstream culture's disgust and disdain for gayness that keeps people in the closet. That's how you discriminate against gays.

    Racist white gays (and their pale skin friends) who enjoy privilege should get over their assumed sense of superiority and do what's fucking right.

    Black straight people should get over it and stop deluding themselves that anti-gay sentiment and homophobia is in any way ok. It's not. And trust me, there are plenty of suffering black gay boys and girls who can give testament to the humiliation exacted against them by other black people.

    As a gay black person, I will never concede that working toward acceptance of one group supersedes the rights and respect deserved by the other.

    Whew....! Sorry guys. My post comes across as haughty but I don't mean to be. It's just this topic makes me so mad as to almost drive me to put my fist through a wall. I understand others disagree but I feel what I have just said as passionately as anything I've ever believed.
    • MadJack and subsapien, thanks for your eloquence.
      • This is my first post to this tribe even though I have been on it for a couple of years and I'm not good at responding to long posts but I'll do my best. My answer to this question is no, racism and gay rights should never piggyback on each other. There are certainly similiarities and each group affected by racism and homophobia could learn from each other but to believe they are the same struggle is wrong.

        A late friend of mine, a Black woman (she was opposed to the term African American) was always annoyed by most, but not all, gay white men. She was tired of hearing how oppressed they were. She acknowledged that there was oppression but what she didn't like was how so many gay white men ignored their priviledge. For example she knew that a gay Black man was at much more risk for being stopped by a cop just for walking down the street in a primarily white community than a gay white guy would. So yeah, homophobia affects everyone in the queer community but with varying degrees in relation to priviledge.

        Having just come from a large queer gathering where many were apolitical and many more could easily ignore their priviledge, this discussion almost restores my faith in humanity. Instead of glimmer of light though, this feels more like a fluorescent light that keeps flickering before it turns on but at least its a start.

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